Huge Antarctic ice chunk collapses

[AJ]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/03/25/antartica.collapse.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A chunk of Antarctic ice about seven times the size of Manhattan suddenly collapsed, putting an even greater portion of glacial ice at risk, scientists said Tuesday.
art.wilkins.collapse.jpg

Scientists flocked to take pictures and shoot video after a massive chunk of the Wilkins ice shelf collapsed in Antarctica.

Satellite images show the runaway disintegration of a 160-square-mile chunk in western Antarctica, which started February 28. It was the edge of the Wilkins ice shelf and has been there for hundreds, maybe 1,500 years.

This is the result of global warming, said British Antarctic Survey scientist David Vaughan.

Because scientists noticed satellite images within hours, they diverted satellite cameras and even flew an airplane over the ongoing collapse for rare pictures and video.

"It's an event we don't get to see very often," said Ted Scambos, lead scientist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado. "The cracks fill with water and slice off and topple... That gets to be a runaway situation."

While icebergs naturally break away from the mainland, collapses like this are unusual but are happening more frequently in recent decades, Vaughan said. The collapse is similar to what happens to hardened glass when it is smashed with a hammer, he said.

The rest of the Wilkins ice shelf, which is about the size of Connecticut, is holding on by a narrow beam of thin ice. Scientists worry that it too may collapse. Larger, more dramatic ice collapses occurred in 2002 and 1995.

Vaughan had predicted the Wilkins shelf would collapse about 15 years from now.

Scientists said they are not concerned about a rise in sea level from the latest event in Antarctica, but say it's a sign of worsening global warming.

Such occurrences are "more indicative of a tipping point or trigger in the climate system," said Sarah Das, a scientist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute.


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Big deal or just a fallen chunk of ice?

[Jana]

Big deal imo. I don't think there's enough being done to stop global warming (slow down).

[dmention7]

Well, at this point anyone who claims that global climate change isn't happening is living in a cave. The only debatable point is just how much of an influence humans are having on the process.

So, it's a big deal in the sense that it's another piece of evidence that we're in for some changes that could potentially have real effects over our lifetimes. While this in and of itself isn't anything to get hysterical about, hopefully it will cause a few more people to think twice about whether they really want to take the chance that we're having an impact on global warming and did nothing about it.

While the jury may be out on whether or not humans are a driving force between global warming (versus a natural process), IMO the potential consequences are well worth the effort of taking measures to reduce our impact. Heck, even if this current global warming trends are merely part of a natural cycle, it would still behoove us to take measures to minimize or slow the process. Natural or artificial, the consequences of a significant climate change could be disastrous for our civilization.

[Young Roids]

This was one of the colder winters we have had in a while though. Last winter I was thinking it was global warming but now this winter not so much. We will see if we have a hot summer this year.

[dmention7]

Thing is, with these kinds of global climate trends, one or two degrees increase in yearly average temperature over a decade or two is a major change, but it's not one that you're generally going to notice from year to year.

[Young Roids]

Remember the ice age though? Well of course no one remembers it but the world came out of the ice age on it's own without the burning of fossle fuels and release of carbon. So I would argue that this could be similar to that. And that the world just has climate changes that just happen.

[dmention7]

That may be true. But it doesn't mean that the effects will be any less disastrous to human civilizations than if we were in fact causing it. And if there is something we could be doing to stop or slow it, those potentially disastrous effects are pretty good justification to make me want to err on the side of caution.

[Young Roids]

Yup, still disatrous. I just doubt that there is really anything we can do to stop it. But if we would want to stop it it all comes back to the fact that we are overpopulated.

[dmention7]

Well, I would argue that it has more to do with the impact each individual in the population has, than the total number of people, though the total number still factors in. Maybe a better way to say that is that it's more likely we can change the per-person impact as opposed to the actual number of people.

[Young Roids]

Then we had better stop driving our turbo charged mazdas around and start taking the bus.

[dmention7]

Oh believe me I wish I could. It's not supposed to cost $40 to fill up a 4-cyl car!!! Buses are uber-FTW

[Young Roids]

I remember when it was $10 to fill up your average four banger. Ahhhh the good old days. I will be tellin my grandkids that one.

[holmstar]

to put it in perspective, we have more (a lot more) CO2 in the atmosphere today than in the so called hot-house period back when dinosaurs roamed the planet and palm trees grew well in into the arctic. Personally, I think we are already well past the point of no return. I doubt there is any way we can reduce atmospheric CO2 enough to stop global warming.

And to make things worse, if global average temperatures hit something like 4-6 degrees warmer on average, we will start to see significant melting of the methane hydrate deposits on the bottom of the ocean. Methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, and there are billions of tons of it on the ocean floor. If released, that methane will produce more global warming than humanity could ever hope to achieve.

[ij1889]

:wank: that is what i think of global warming, the world goes through changes, and yet we are making a huge deal of it, yes i know that 4 degrees of difference in the world would mean would fail, but lets stop bitching and seeing how we can stop it, and start thinking of how we are going to live with this difference (if there really is a huge difference in temp happening in the next ten years) to me i believe it is more than a scam than anything, to make us buy more expensive products out on the market or gov, "oh no, the world is gonna burn, lets buy hybrids that cost a shitload, buy organic shit that is twiced overpriced, and buy things that are less harmful to the enviroment, but that will make a bigger hole in our pockets, and raise the cost of fossil fuels, even tho we are sitting on top of a major fossil fuel sea but we would rather pollute other places in the world to get out oil, and pay crazy money for fuel than to use what we have", i agree that we do need to make changes to make the world cleaner, but i do not think we should pay so much for it, its over rated to me and many people are getting rich off of this, shit needs to stop and be more of a fair price, just because it has a label saying something, does not mean its more expensive, hmmm... lets think, is it more expensive to make toxic waste or use natural shit??? we not encourage organic by giving a resonable price and upping toxics

[Big Nate]

Well globule warming. Yeah.

But Jay I will say this if you think you (or even the US as a whole) think that they can change the trend. You are sadly mistaken. It will be like you not spending the check you get from the gov this year. Not a damn thing will change. I think global warming is a lot like space everyone thinks they know what the hell they are talking about, then all of a sudden Star Trek was right and there is antimatter.



But a lot like God gives people something to believe in. If it makes you feel better to turn a little bit of your life "green", then go ahead and green it up.

[mndsm]

I don't know that I believe global warming. Millions of years ago we had tons of volcanoes belching smoke and ash and all sort of things that are the equivalent of what automotive exhausts are doing now, and dinosaurs. People say that cows farting is contributing to the process, well, dinosaurs were bigass cows and they probably dropped dookers the size of Hyundais, whaddya think they were putting out there?

[Big Nate]

I never told you I don't do things that are green Jay. I have kids and I teach them all I can to conserve. And the bases for all of my “theories” is my own life and experience. Also I was not ripping on the fact THAT you do “green” things I was ripping on the fact that you THINK it will help.

and on topic.

I like ice.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

If somebody wishes to voluntarily take steps based on their view of global warming, they certainly have the right to do so in a free country. However, I have a real problem when people want to use our government or sacrifice our sovereignty to some international supergovernment to force other people to act the same way.

The problem is that the establishment does not allow anyone, particularly other scientists, to question their methodology and findings. Is CO2 really a leading or a trailing indicator of global warming? Why is the entire solar system increasing in temperature (likely increased solar output)? What about the fact the ice pack is increasing in many areas of Antarctica? How do we really know it's not part of a long term natural cycle?

We need to answer these answers and open up the theory of Global Warming (particularly the part that it is significantly impacted by humans) to full and candid scrutiny, particularly before we take extreme action that will likely plunge the world into an economic depression and cause major impacts to our standard of living and quality of life.

FWIW, I don't believe in wasting energy or resources, but I would rather allow individuals to determine what is waste rather than extremists like Greenpeace or the Sierra Club. Personally, I do conserve in many ways, but I want that to remain my choice rather than have others force their definition of conservation on me.

[mazdamn02]

I think the "silver bullet" (coors) is stealing the ice to make more awesome commercials.

[Workdawg]

I believe you're right Josh!

[Jesse MS3GT]

So how many months til we have the bogus carbon tax that will SAVE THE WORLD FROM GLOBAL WARMING?

Thats what its mainly about..

And nate made a very good point. Science constantly changes its mind on things... And "ideas" that were once made up or though impossible turn out to be true. Science is fact yes, but its fact that constantly changes. Clinging onto one change and not accepting others is a close minded way to think on any subject.

[dmention7]

Science is fact yes, but its fact that constantly changes. Clinging onto one change and not accepting others is a close minded way to think on any subject.

Agreed, but that does not imply that the best current thinking or the supporting evidence is wrong. All that means is that new evidence should not be turned away simply because it doesn't meet current thinking.

[Jesse MS3GT]

Agreed, but that does not imply that the best current thinking or the supporting evidence is wrong. All that means is that new evidence should not be turned away simply because it doesn't meet current thinking.

The eart is flat... Whoops no its not.

Eggs are good, eggs are bad... Well the white is ok, the yellow is bad. Milks good for you, no its not good... Oh its just the hormones that might not be good for you. Cigarettes are safe, oh wait no they are not.

People dont drink enough water, you need 64oz a day, woops now many scientists say we drink too much water.

Its a laughing stock IMO.

[Young Roids]

If somebody wishes to voluntarily take steps based on their view of global warming, they certainly have the right to do so in a free country. However, I have a real problem when people want to use our government or sacrifice our sovereignty to some international supergovernment to force other people to act the same way.

The problem is that the establishment does not allow anyone, particularly other scientists, to question their methodology and findings. Is CO2 really a leading or a trailing indicator of global warming? Why is the entire solar system increasing in temperature (likely increased solar output)? What about the fact the ice pack is increasing in many areas of Antarctica? How do we really know it's not part of a long term natural cycle?

We need to answer these answers and open up the theory of Global Warming (particularly the part that it is significantly impacted by humans) to full and candid scrutiny, particularly before we take extreme action that will likely plunge the world into an economic depression and cause major impacts to our standard of living and quality of life.

FWIW, I don't believe in wasting energy or resources, but I would rather allow individuals to determine what is waste rather than extremists like Greenpeace or the Sierra Club. Personally, I do conserve in many ways, but I want that to remain my choice rather than have others force their definition of conservation on me.
James you sound like a gay republican. Not a bad thing. I actually think that it shows that you think for yourself and don't just go along with the staus quo. But do you get into alot of political arguments with your gay friends all the time?



The eart is flat... Whoops no its not.

Eggs are good, eggs are bad... Well the white is ok, the yellow is bad. Milks good for you, no its not good... Oh its just the hormones that might not be good for you. Cigarettes are safe, oh wait no they are not.

People dont drink enough water, you need 64oz a day, woops now many scientists say we drink too much water.

Its a laughing stock IMO.

I agree. I just totally don't care everytime I hear the newest thing that is good for you. Chocolate is healthy! Saturated fat is bad let's switch it over to trans fat. Oh no trans fat is worse. This is why I am more worried about real things like the raising gas price than the things like global warming that they are unsure of. The globe might be warming but I know for sure that every time I go to the gas station the price does in fact go up.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Well, I used to be a gay republican... now I'm more of a gay libertarian. :)

The problem is that the current thinking and evidence is not open to candid and critical review particularly by those who dissent. I find it highly suspicious when any community, particularly one that is supposed to be open to such review, actively works to block it.

[Young Roids]

Yes I know libertarian. Similar to republican in many aspects though.

[Big Nate]

Yeah, if you only get your scientific facts from the mainstream media, of course you're going to get a ludicrous and contradictory picture. News outlets have better things to do than responsibly report about the significance and context of scientific research--that's why we get headlines like "SCIENTISTS CREATE ZOMBIE DOGS" when researchers are able to successfully bring a dog back from a brief state of suspended animation that qualifies as medical death. That's why there is a new fad diet spawned everytime an a paper is published on the effect of a certain nutrient and reported on out of context.

The sensationalist media, IMO, is the single biggest contributor to scientific illiteracy in this country. People would rather have their facts chewed up and regurgitated by the Channel 5 Action News than--god forbid--do a little critical thinking for themselves and draw their own conclusions.



Jay I do a lot of critical thinking but then punks that think there smart come along and talk fight every point I make into dust. What do I do about that?????

Groble warming is happening all i am saying is you are silly to think that the fact that your car, boat, garbage and wahtever else you toss at the earth will really make that much of a difference. It is like peeing in a pool nothing will change when your done.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Yes I know libertarian. Similar to republican in many aspects though.

At least with how they used to be, some people have labeled me a Goldwater Republican, which having read more about Barry Goldwater is a fair assessment.

[Picklz]

Jay I do a lot of critical thinking but then punks that think there smart come along and talk fight every point I make into dust. What do I do about that?????

Groble warming is happening all i am saying is your are silly to think that the fact that your car, boat, garbage and wahtever else you toss at the earth will really make that much of a difference. It is like peeing in a pool nothing will change when your done.


I agree nate, one person driving a low or zero emission car, or living 'greener' isn't going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but what if 100 do? 1000? 100,000,? 1,000,000? How many people does it take before it's a sizable impact?

One individual won't make a difference, but if all the people that think that actually do something about it, it will add up to something. Same with elections, sure your one vote might not change much, but if thousands or hundreds of thousands who think that decide to get off their ass and vote, it DOES make a difference.

[dmention7]

Sorry nate if that's the way it came across... i wasn't trying to insult anyone directly.... probably just not the best day for me to be posting in a thread like this.

carry on...

[Big Nate]

I agree nate, one person driving a low or zero emission car, or living 'greener' isn't going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but what if 100 do? 1000? 100,000,? 1,000,000? How many people does it take before it's a sizable impact?

One individual won't make a difference, but if all the people that think that actually do something about it, it will add up to something. Same with elections, sure your one vote might not change much, but if thousands or hundreds of thousands who think that decide to get off their ass and vote, it DOES make a difference.

That is a very good point too Matt. The thing about that is it just needs to start to happen. We recycle more now then we ever have and they are still telling us the ozone is being burned up faster and faster. So if I would use your method that should not be happening. The ozone should be burning up slower and slower. We can’t make people do what they don’t want to do. And as it sits now there is more money to be made by the current use then by the reformed green method.