More evidence of torture by U.S.

[Young Roids]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/60minutes/main3976928.shtml

:mad:

[ij1889]

its always happened in our gov and any gov in the world, it just doesnt get leaked out to much in the states

[Young Roids]

We are supposed to be better than this. If we torture people we are no better than the terrorists.

[ij1889]

ehh... i know, but its never gonna change, the us is to paranoid to stop the torturings

[Workdawg]

I'm not advocating torture, nor saying we are better than terrorists. It could easily be argued that we are terrorists in places like Afghanistan and Iraq...

But I hardly think torture by itself is comparable to terrorism. Torture some people suspected of terrorism is FAR different than killing hundreds or thousands of completely innocent people.

[Young Roids]

Key word suspected of terrorism. What if you were suspected of terrorism I know you wouldn't want to be tortured.

[Jesse MS3GT]

^ Exactly. The patriot acts are scary with their definitions of terrorism and such as well....

[Young Roids]

Politicians just used this big terrorism scare to undermine our constituional(sp) rights.

[Workdawg]

Again, I'm not arguing about how the patriot act is bs and whatnot... but I still think torture is not nearly as bad as terrorism.

I would rather be tortured than have my entire family and hundreds of others be killed.

[Young Roids]

But just because terrorism is worse than torture in your opinion. I don't think that makes the torture an ok thing. I don't really want to get into a debate on whether or not there is a higher power but I don't think anyone will truly escape there judgement in the end. So I don't think it is the governments job to go around torturing terror suspects as some kind of retribution for their actions.

[Big Nate]

Torture has been done for ever by every single government. For god sake even the Swiss did/do it. Torture is never going to go away.

You can't say the Patriot act is bad. The Patriot act was a decision that had to be made and was not thought through. It will get fixed in time. Just like back in the day with proabition.

In the end my view is this. Torture is inevitable, with out it this country would not be a safe as it is today.

[Young Roids]

This site is full of George W Bush republicans>>>:usa1: :sex020: :usa1:

[ij1889]

hmmm... kinda makes me ashamed of myself to be on here if thats true

[Big Nate]

Well it should make you proud to be on a site with people who are willing to speak there mind. You did by starting this thread so don't be a hypocrite and look down on me for posting my opinion in said thread.


And Jay I have found that if you can't impeach him join him. lol Plus this is the last year we have to have him in office.

[Young Roids]

Just jokin with ya. I agree we all need to speak our minds that is what the USA is all about freedom of speech.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

You can't say the Patriot act is bad. The Patriot act was a decision that had to be made and was not thought through. It will get fixed in time. Just like back in the day with proabition.

Why can't you say the Patriot Act is bad? It was not a decision that had to be made and could have been made in a way that did not exceed the powers granted to the Federal Government by the Constitution.

Are we really safer due to torture? I would need to see more evidence before I could take a position either way on that one. However, I would take the risks of being less safe to have a government that acts in an ethical manner within its powers.

[Young Roids]

even if we are safer from torture(wich I doubt) I still don't think it is the right thing to do. That would mean the ends justify the means.

[Big Nate]

well here is a situation. A person is arrested with explosive material. that person will not say what it is for. Two guy/girl man take him into a room. They come out of that room one hour later with an address.. Cops go to said address and find three people with explosive vests on ready to take a walk trough a very crowded market. They then stop them and put them in jail. None of this information would have been given to the the police/FBI/whatever without what happened in that room. Bam safer country .

[Young Roids]

We don't torture suspects in other crimes. Why do we torture suspected terrorists? And then when wil it stop? I can just see the politicians going "Hmmm, torture works so great with terror suspects lets start torturing other suspected crimnals as well." So then every time you get pulled over by the police they torture you when you say you are innocent(sure this may be a streach but you get my point). Once we start saying "well it would make it safer for the rest of us then lets do it" we are crossing a line that should not be crossed.

[Workdawg]

Terrorists typically are going to harm a lot more people than any other criminals. Few murders manage to kill more than a handful of people, where a terrorist will easily kill hundreds.

[Young Roids]

I realize that.^ But how do you know this torture of terrorists isn't part of some master plan by Republicans to eventually torture suspects of any crime? And then back to my original point that what if these said terror suspects are in reality innocent?

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Nate, the problem is that you are assuming that torture is the only way to gain information from a suspect. Not only is this false, but torture is not even the best way to do it. WWII intelligence officers found relaxing the subject and engaging their brains in other means was extremely effective. They found out more chatting over a game of chess than they did otherwise.

I would rather be less safe than allow ourselves to be degraded in this way. Freedom and self-respect are more important than safety.

[Big Nate]

James you asked “Are we really safer due to torture? I would need to see more evidence before I could take a position either way on that one. However, I would take the risks of being less safe to have a government that acts in an ethical manner within its powers.” So when I give you an example of that you go and tell me thats not the only way. I know its not the only way to get info James. I am not sitting here as a torture monger. I would really like people to look at what they ask and then look at the answer given. Has I reread your question is there any talk of other ways to get info that will not put me, you, everyone at risk. No you said I would take the risks of being less safe to have a government that acts in an ethical manner within its powers.

Torture is bad I have never said it is not. There are two sides to every story, I am just the one on the other side. Please don’t try and twist what I say.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Sorry, Nate. I misinterpreted you statement to mean that the information could not be gained any other way. I also could have worded the question to say better what I meant, whether it would make us safer than using other means of questioning and information gathering rather than no questioning at all.

[asellus]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it:

stop being pussies.

If you aren't doing malicious shit and aren't viewed as suspicious by the government, you have nothing to worry about.

If you ARE... then fuck, you deserve to be tortured for being stupid.

I bet $100 that no one you know has been or ever will be tortured for information.

Stop crying.

[Young Roids]

Well that might have to do with the fact that I am white. If I was of middle eastern descent and knew other people that were middle eastern then it may be different. I don't fit the profile that they are looking at so I personally probly wont be affected. That doesn't make it right though. using that logic you could justify slavery to a crowd of white people.

[asellus]

Physical appearance has nothing to do with your actions. If you start saying "I'm gonna fuckin' blow up the white house" everywhere you go, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE you will get picked up by the feds.

[Young Roids]

If you are interested in this topic you might want to check out the movie Rendition.

[Big Nate]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it:

stop being pussies.

If you aren't doing malicious shit and aren't viewed as suspicious by the government, you have nothing to worry about.

If you ARE... then fuck, you deserve to be tortured for being stupid.

I bet $100 that no one you know has been or ever will be tortured for information.

Stop crying.

Very good point.


Well that might have to do with the fact that I am white. If I was of middle eastern descent and knew other people that were middle eastern then it may be different. I don't fit the profile that they are looking at so I personally probly wont be affected. That doesn't make it right though. using that logic you could justify slavery to a crowd of white people.

I have a lot of friends that are NOT white and there is no chance that they will be tortured.


Physical appearance has nothing to do with your actions. If you start saying "I'm gonna fuckin' blow up the white house" everywhere you go, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE you will get picked up by the feds.

And Thank you asellus for putting the site on a FBI watch list with that comment. LOL

[ZoomZoom Diva]

asellus, you may have such faith in our government, but I am not convinced these practices will only be used on terrorists. Also, living in a land where we believe in innocent until proven guilty, the mere suspicion of being a terrorist is simply not enough. Even then, torture is a practice beneath what people who represent the people of this country should perform or condone.

[Workdawg]

Haha... innocent until proven guilty? That might be a concept that the country was founded on, but I don't think that's actually the case any more.

[Young Roids]

I have a lot of friends that are NOT white and there is no chance that they will be tortured.





Yes, but how many of your friends are middle eastern/arab?

[Big Nate]

My brother-in-law is.

[Young Roids]

Is he for or against torture? Or is he worried about being profiled by the government?