Who killed the electric car?

[Jesse MS3GT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSBykAngDpY&NR=1

Seriously, why is there a discussion needed.. its obvious big oil companies saw their profits gong away so they bought them out...

Oh wait but thats a conspiracy theory :rolleyes:

[dmention7]

That's not a conspiracy theory, that's just big business doing what big business does best: fight tooth and nail to protect its profits and fuck the consumer.

[Jesse MS3GT]

Then you must fail to realize other conspiracy theories... Same rule applies... People trying to keep money/power/control but OK ;)

[dmention7]

It's not a conspiracy though. It's just business.

There is a damn far stretch between believing that big oil companies would buy out technology that threatens to undermine their profits--despite the ethical concerns--and believing that the government would intentionally kill thousands of civilians in a mock-terrorist attack. Especially when you consider the entire body of surrounding evidence. One is simply a business transaction, the other one is a convoluted and contradictory story.

[dmention7]

I mean, you can't label every single behind-the-scenes business strategy as a conspiracy. Otherwise, you get "OMG COKE HAS AN EXCLUSIVE DEAL WITH THE U of M!!! CONSPIRAX0RCY!!!one!!!1" and "ZOMG APPLE MAKES YOU BUY MUSIC FROM ITUNES TO USE WITH THEIR IPODS!!!!! ONOES CONSPIRACY!!!"

It's just common sense. Do we have to like the implications of the business deals? Hell no. But just because we don't like something shady they do, doesn't make it a freakin conspiracy. Otherwise, what do you say? That oil companies are conspiring to make their products as desirable as possible for as long as possible by buying competing technology?

Now if they were paying the government to put chemicals in municipal water supplies that caused us to mutate and develop addiction to chemicals in the exhaust of cars that burned only their brand of gasoline, then you might have something worthy of being labeled a conspiracy.

[Jesse MS3GT]

It depends on which scientists and physicists you believe on the tower collapse. And yes I did consider all the surrounding evidence, from the governments report to independent physicists and former cia agents. I guess I just side with the agents and scientists who speak aginst the governments report because I think the govament cheese is out to get me :rolleyes: Course the big oil companies wouldnt want us in oil filled Iraq, and Bush has no ties to oil... So tying in 9/11 to Iraq to get us in there is an absurd thought. Thats another argument.

When is the tesla roadster coming out? Or have the oil companies bought that car out already?

[Z-licious]

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[Workdawg]

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/Workdawg17/Funny%20Stuff/picard-facepalm.jpg

[Z-licious]

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[mazdamn02]

http://arkive.us/img/fail..jpg

[cosmicspd3]

I enjoyed the movie and cant wait for more EV cars to start coming. if they had been R&D'ing battery technology since the first EV car's back in the early 1900's we could of had some wicked ones.

[Jesse MS3GT]

I enjoyed the movie and cant wait for more EV cars to start coming. if they had been R&D'ing battery technology since the first EV car's back in the early 1900's we could of had some wicked ones.

http://www.teslamotors.com/ Its a start :)

[mndsm]

It was the Stonecutters. That is all.

[spek1098]

Yea, I think in the end, it will be shown that GM shot themselves in the foot and help the Japs over take them in the market by the premature ending of the EV car program. The problem was all economics. At the time, oil was near $20 a barrel and gas was near $1 a gallon, so in that type of market, an electric car with limit mileage, was basically unchallenged, and GM didn't have the foresight to see the changing economic conditions that ended up being around the corner.

Wasn't much of the blame in the movie put on the board in California that was responsible for the states part of the funding? That's who I had heard was at the most fault for the demise of the EV1.

It's really to bad, maybe if GM hadn't given up on electric, drop $1 billion into the development of hydrogen (which as gone no where), and instead focused that on electric and hybrid technology, maybe Toyota wouldn't be leading the way in the auto market, and GM fighting for its survival.

[Z-licious]

if they had been R&D'ing battery technology since the first EV car's back in the early 1900's we could of had some wicked ones.

Weren't people still rolling in horse drawn carriages that long ago?

[dmention7]

Yep, but electric cars have been around as long as electricity has.

[cosmicspd3]

well the first EV thing was a carriage in the mid 1800's the "cars" came in the early 1900's

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Was Michael Moore involved? The preview seems to be terribly slanted that some great conspiracy dooming the electric car when much of it simply did not make economic sense. There are also liability concerns in place to leave an vehicle on the road that is completely unsupported, and the costs to support would be untenable.

Bottom line is gasoline is still the least expensive total cost of ownership.

[Young Roids]

The tesla looks like a major step in the right direction. It is insane how much the oil companies have us by the balls right now. Did anyone see the truck protest in multiple cities today? THe truckers really can't make money with $4+ diesel prices. And don't get me started on that E85 trash, that in itself is a conspiracy.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

E10 (the "regular gas" we're required to use) is an even greater conspiracy than E85, though both qualify as true conspiracies. If nothing else, E85 could be produced far more efficiently using non-food crops and bulk wastes than the current corn-based production model.

[Young Roids]

YEa, I have multiple beefs with corn based ethanol. The worst thing is that it is mainly just a way for farmers to raise corn prices wich raises the price on pretty much all food at the grocery store. And secondly the amount of fuel burned to proccess the corn into ethanol is high so it really doesn't help the environment more than oil. If we want to make fuel from plants there are better plants that should be used like some stuff that grows in lakes(I don't know the specifice plant) that is being researched by a professor at augsburg.

[spek1098]

The tesla looks like a major step in the right direction. It is insane how much the oil companies have us by the balls right now. Did anyone see the truck protest in multiple cities today? THe truckers really can't make money with $4+ diesel prices. And don't get me started on that E85 trash, that in itself is a conspiracy.

If they can't make money, then either they need to raise their prices, or find new work. I don't see why they can't make money. How else is everything going move around? Trains are limited to where they can go. Maybe $4 diesel will help entice someone to develop a hybrid semi that gets much better mileage and entices semi drives to drive more conservatively and not idle there engines while sleeping.

And the subsidization of the corn-based ethanol industry, and the protectionistic $1 per gallon tariff we put on imported ethanol, are just more examples of how government should not be in the business of singling out individual industries and technologies with incentives. It should help with research and development of new ideas, and then let the market place workout which one will be the best. We could go on to the farm industry subsidization, which is a conspiracy, one that’s perpetuated by the need to be reelected. But that’s for another thread.

[dmention7]

I have mixed view on ethanol. On the one hand, it makes me happy to see an alternative--any alternative--to petroleum gaining traction as a mainstream fuel. But on the other hand, the way it's being implemented as a virtual subsidy for corn farmers makes me worried about the backlash that will eventually happen, and it's potential impact on other alternative fuel sources.

[Bartron8000]

So I watch this movie over the weekend, and I was really impressed. I can understand why the auto manufactures were scared to produce a car like that back then, but I really don't know why they worked so hard to destroy it. I find it funny that Tesla is coming out with an all electric sports car thats going to sell, and they are going to make money off of it.

I also agree partially with Young Roids on ethanol. It really is going to mess with food prices, and it does take a lot of energy to process. But ethanol as an alternative isn't a bad idea, we are just using the wrong ethanol. Sugarcane ethanol is a much better fuel, as it doesn't destroy the top soil as much and it is less corrosive. I do think that we need to move to diesels. I've read numerous articles on how people simply change the fuel filter and filter vegetable oil and just pour it into the tank and the car runs absolutely fine. I also find it incredibly funny that a diesel Golf in Europe gets almost double the MPG then a Prius, and it emits less CO2 then a Prius. Thats my 2 cents.

[dmention7]

Well, the holy grail of fuel ethanol would be an efficient and economic system for producing cellulosic ethanol--that is, ethanol that is derived from practically any plant matter. Biodiesel still has the edge in that the mass production is already feasible, but ethanol has the edge in that current gasoline engine technology can easily be applied to burn ethanol and/or ethanol blends.

I mean... when it really comes down to it, petroleum is a biofuel. But the difference is that instead of being able to grow and refine the fuel in a single crop cycle (as with ethanol and biodiesel), petroleum takes millions of years to produce. All of these so-called "alternative fuels" are really just investigating ways to reduce the time it takes to produce a given volume of fuel by a million-fold or so, such that we can produce fuel as fast as we consume it. When you look at it from that perspective, modern biofuels seem a lot less exotic.

[Young Roids]

I also find it incredibly funny that a diesel Golf in Europe gets almost double the MPG then a Prius, and it emits less CO2 then a Prius. Thats my 2 cents.

When they finally bring the golf or one of the other ultra efficient diesels they have in europe stateside it will likley be the car that replaces my MS3.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Jay, I'm a little confused. Biodiesel requires no alterations to be burned in existing diesel and fuel oil applications.

[dmention7]

Right, but when it comes to passenger cars, the gasoline engine enjoys virtual ubiquity in the US. So the ability to "grow" a fuel that is a direct replacement for gasoline is attractive for weaning us off of fossil fuels--both from an infrastructure and public-acceptance standpoint.

[ZoomZoom Diva]

That is true for cars, but when you start adding in trucks, equipment, trains, home heating oil and all the other items biodiesel can do, let's not underestimate it... honestly I see a place for both to operate side by side.

[dmention7]

Oh, definitely. I wasn't trying to say that one will replace the other.

[mndsm]

And if we're lucky, my house will smell like french fries and KFC!

[spek1098]

Yea, there are a lot of interesting things going on out there in the world of bio-fuels (I consider thinks like coal, NG, and oil to be fossil fuels, as calling them bio-fuels, although technically correct, confuses the issue). I've been hearing algae could have great possibilities as a cellulosic ethanol source.

Maybe it was said in this or another thread, but being that the extent of the effect of human sourced CO2 is minimally understood, the best thing that will come about from us weaning ourselves off oil is that we will stop supporting oppressive governments, that for the most part, entirely undermine our efforts to maintain global security. Oppression breeds radicalism, which, in turn breeds terrorism.

[cosmicspd3]

tesla store is now open
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/05/06/transportation-tuesday-first-tesla-store-open-in-la/

vw's new concept can get over 200mpg with just a diesel engine!
http://gas2.org/2008/05/07/vw-confirms-1l-concept-will-become-reality-in-2010/

i cant wait for the chevy volt platform though, that will be a huge step in the right direction.