Adam Carolla on the US Automakers bailout.

[Stealthgator]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4294731.html

P.S.
I really hope NBC doesn't screw up Top Gear

 

[LASERBLUE135]

"They'll go so retro, it's actually a living horse." that was a great line. I have to say he's right on. Especially with the interiors. I mean seriously how hard is it to bring a Jetta into the GM facilitity and say "this is what our interiors need to look like".

Take the Mazda3 for instance. In 2004 when that car came out. I was shocked at how nice the interior was for an entry level car. American cars have made significant changes, but they've got a ways to go.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

I disagree. American car makers ARE building cars that are as good and are competitive with the foreign automakers, but the public perception that the American car is subpar is pervasive and far too many people will not consider American cars with an open mind.

The Jetta interior is NOT impressive. I never understood why VW is considered to have good interiors. They're decently put together (at least initally), but it's too minimalist and has the aesthetics of an econobox.

 

[WhiteSpy9]

Base 2008 Cobalt, Jetta, Mazda 3.
I think the pictures speak for themselves.


Cobalt

Jetta

Mazda 3

 

[dmention7]

The public perception that american cars are inferior didn't just come out of nowhere. Detroit was too lazy for too long, and to expect the general public to change their attitudes in a short timespan, is unrealistic--especially concerning the purchase of the second most expensive item in their lives. At least in the near future, as long as american cars are only "as good as" foreign cars, The Big Three are going to have a tough time selling cars.

Then there's the fact that a car is not just an appliance for a lot of people, so simply having two cars that are equal in price, build quality, reliability, etc isn't going to mean equal appeal.

What it boils down to is that, even if Detroit doesn't have issues with its product right now, it certainly has issues with it's image. And the fact is, that's a problem that requires a longer-term solution. Simply put, I don't think we're going to see much in the way of exciting financial news out of the Big Three until they can show not that they are as good as other car companies, but better.

 

[YSOSLO]

While I understand what James' trying to get at, I have to agree with Jay's statements overall...and Dan's pics are great at illustrating his point as well. While I'm not a fan of European interiors in general, because more often than not I find they have a plethora of tiny buttons that aren't placed in as ergonomically obvious a manner as I find most Japanese vehicles to be, I would definitely agree that the overall "look" of any foreign manufacturer's interiors exceeds most U.S. makers' vehicles. Sure, Lincoln makes some beautiful interiors, but I'm unlikely to be willing to pay $50K for a pickup truck with a nice interior or $45K for a mid-sized SUV with a nice interior, when I can pay $10K less to buy a Japanese-made vehicle with an equally nice interior that also has the ergonomics I appreciate in addition to all of their other benefits like better gas mileage (when comparing apples to apples, not hybrid vs. regular drivetrain) better reliability IMO and better ability to hold their value. I would disagree with Jay in the sense that I don't think the U.S. automakers have to prove to buyers that they're BETTER than the foreign manufacturers, but I believe they need to throw out their current formulas that they've done business under for so long. Namely, Dodge needs to get out of the habit of bringing a basic, okay, average vehicle onto the market and then improving each model in big ways each year after that which can make buyers want to wait year after year for the upgrade that will inevitably come the next year. Give everyone the big stuff up front (like a choice of interiors, choice of engines and a full range of features) and then make little tweaks until the next big revision as the foreign manufacturers do. Ford and Chevy do a better job of giving people the choices up front, but both of these manufacturers seem to have quality and reliability problems with their lower end models. It's one thing to offer a less feature-packed vehicle for those that choose to drive a less expensive vehicle, but it's another matter altogether when the less expensive vehicle ends up in the shop or just plain looking crappy more often due to shoddy materials and workmanship. Whether all of a manufacturer's vehicles are poorly constructed or if it's just the baseline models that end up with a bad rep, it ultimately effects peoples' overall impression of the Make.

I'm sure I've mentioned before that Jess and I are all about Japanese vehicles, but I don't think I said why. When Jess and I met, I was driving my Subaru Impreza 2.5RS and she was driving a Chevy Z24. At 77K miles, her engine was shot. Something to do with coolant or something, but she took it to the dealer for regular maintenance and it didn't last 5yrs. In contrast, my Sube is still going strong now that it's 10yrs old.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

While bad samples exist with any car, the larger numbers indicate that reliability and quality as measured by problem rates is essentially a statistical wash. Resale value is something outside of the realm of the automakers, and is a popularity contest in the used car market, not any objective indication of quality, reliability, or durability.

The Jetta and the Cobalt interiors appear on par to me in those pictures, neither seem particularly stylish or upscale. The 3 is an outlier in the entire class, and should not be used as a measure of the nationalities in general.

Making a better car isn't going to fix the issues of public perception, because you actually have to give a car a chance to see that it is truly better. People are judging American cars based on experiences and often hearsay from decades ago, and not giving current models an unbiased evaluation. Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.

 

[AJ]

Base 2008 Cobalt, Jetta, Mazda 3.
I think the pictures speak for themselves.


Cobalt

Jetta

Mazda 3

Cobalt < Jetta < Mazda 3

 

[DrWebster]

On the topic of interiors:

The first time I saw the 3's interior in person, I literally said "wow." I was not expecting an $18k car to have as nice of an interior as that. One of the reasons I'm not considering a next-gen 3 as a new car when the time comes because Mazda royally f*cked up the interior.

I generally like the Jetta/Golf/GTI's interior, except the cowling bit where the dash meets the windshield bugs the hell out of me.

I don't think I've ever seen a domestic car whose interior I was mostly happy with. The Cobalt isn't horrible, but it does scream "rental car".

 

[dmention7]

While bad samples exist with any car, the larger numbers indicate that reliability and quality as measured by problem rates is essentially a statistical wash. Resale value is something outside of the realm of the automakers, and is a popularity contest in the used car market, not any objective indication of quality, reliability, or durability.

The Jetta and the Cobalt interiors appear on par to me in those pictures, neither seem particularly stylish or upscale. The 3 is an outlier in the entire class, and should not be used as a measure of the nationalities in general.

Making a better car isn't going to fix the issues of public perception, because you actually have to give a car a chance to see that it is truly better. People are judging American cars based on experiences and often hearsay from decades ago, and not giving current models an unbiased evaluation. Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.

Like I said though, not everyone buys a car as an appliance. Statistal measures of value aside, I can't remember the last time a car from detroit has appealed to me from any aesthetic perspective except for power. As far as I can tell, American car companies are striving to be a domestic version of toyota (reliable, quality cars with no soul) but without the reputation toyota's branding carries.

Even when they do try to make something exciting, their flagship performance cars seem to rely entirely on reliving their hey-day of 4 decades ago. Like Carolla said, they're looking in the rear-view mirror while everyone else is looking out the windshield.

I just don't buy the idea that it's stupid consumers that are responsible for their current situation. I mean, look at japanese cars... when they first broke into the american market, they were the joke of the industry. It's not an accident that they quickly became a staple product. Bottom line, if your product isn't selling, it's silly to blame the consumer for not wanting what you're selling. You blame yourself for not selling what the consumer wants.

 

[YSOSLO]

Well said Jay. Calling the American consumer stupid for not wanting a product that, for whatever reason, isn't rising to the top of the heap isn't the way to get ahead. As I said when the whole Chevy Volt topic came up, if Chevy brings that vehicle to market at what the Average Joe consumer believes to be a reasonable price, then I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it truly ends up performing as has been told to the Press and looks as good as it has in the pics because it's exactly the type of vehicle I would want...and none of the Japanese automakers have anything like it. I'll be pretty impressed if Chevy is actually able to pull it off though, because it'll probably come in at too high a price (read: over $35K) due to their financial woes or whatever.

U.S. automakers seem to believe they need to corner the market on tough cars and trucks while giving consumers the same ole same ole, while the foreign makers seem to believe that by providing either a premiere driving experience or an excellent list of included features combined with excellent fuel economy at a reasonable price. Until a U.S. automaker can come up with a BMW/Mercedes competitor with regard to driving experience as well as a Prius/Civic hybrid competitor they're going to be playing catch up IMO....and THAT'S stupid.

 

[Stealthgator]

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/bestbet/articles/index.html

Only five American brands on the list.

 

[Stealthgator]

Oh and this too:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumerstoprated/2008/index.html

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

The problem is that all too many people are saying the Big3 are not producing the products they want when they are not even looking at the products the Big3 are making with an open mind. You can tell this when they give their reasons why they say this, or whether they actually looked at the domestic products... and when you are spending that kind of money and not taking a full look at every product in a given category... that IS stupid. Yes, Detroit needs to do more than just have a competitive product like they have today. However, there are questions of how much good it will do when people won't give them a fair opportunity (enthusiasts not married to a marque might, but a significant percentage of the general public doesn't and won't... which again is stupid.)

I disagree the imports have any corner on a better driving experience, feature set or fuel economy... and I consider to be part of the image issue Detroit has.

One could also argue the public WANTS retro vehicles in some cases. The Mustang has sold very well.

Hybrids are a scam, they largely do not pay for themselves on a time-value weighted basis, and the federal government should not be subsidizing them. The effort would be far better placed in true alternative fuel research and in making regular cars more fuel efficient.

Mazda has lost me with the new whale-of-a-6, and the 3 doesn't seem to be stepping in to fill the canyon that is now in their lineup (plus I am also not enamored with the interior or exterior).

What's the point of selling the Volt at an attractive price if they lose their shirts in the process? Sorry, but it's going to be expensive to make, and there is no way for them to get their money back.

 

[WhiteSpy9]

Agreed 100%.
Cobalt = rental 4 life!

On the topic of interiors:

The first time I saw the 3's interior in person, I literally said "wow." I was not expecting an $18k car to have as nice of an interior as that. One of the reasons I'm not considering a next-gen 3 as a new car when the time comes because Mazda royally f*cked up the interior.

I generally like the Jetta/Golf/GTI's interior, except the cowling bit where the dash meets the windshield bugs the hell out of me.

I don't think I've ever seen a domestic car whose interior I was mostly happy with. The Cobalt isn't horrible, but it does scream "rental car".

 

[spek1098]

:bows before the omnipotent and all-knowing Adam Carolla. To question his word is to question the word of god. Nuff said.