2010 Twin turbo Taurus SHO

[StealthSpeed3]

as much as i like the idea and the looks i couldn't justify dropping $40K for a Taurus. If i wanted a sporty vehicle from ford that wasn't a mustang i would look at the FPV line the Aussies get. If i spend $40K on a car it's going to be a Cadillac, Benz, or Lexus. If it lost a little weight i might consider it, otherwise to me it's just another land yacht.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Pete, you are hitting on one point of mine, which is the sampling of the market research and the phrasing and presentation of the research questions.

However, I also believe automakers have been working to eliminate demand for manual transmissions. For years not only have automakers been removing manuals from models and engine choices, but not allowing a manual transmission to be configured with completely unrelated equipment. For example, on the Mazda5, you can't get a manual with the touring or the GT. Another case is the Lincoln LS. The V6 only offered a manual, not the V8. Also, despite advertisements, not a single dealer had even one manual LS on the lot, and would not bring one in for me to drive without a non-refundable deposit. This lack of real availability set the manual offering up to failure.

There are two types of demand. There is the demand that people will go out of their way for something. Then there is the demand that people won't. If two cars are on the lot that are the same, one auto and one manual, they'll take the manual. However, they won't special order a car or take another model or different equipment just to get it. It is this second group that would increase the number of manuals sold if they were available for people to conveniently buy.

Colin,

1) I agree automatics are better, however, manual transmissions are not geared to be as efficient as automatics. The automatic often has taller ratios for better fuel economy, making the comparison impossible to make fairly on an apples to apples basis.

2) A DSG still eliminates much of the driving experience of a manual. I would still say it disqualifies than man card as there is no clutch pedal.

3) A manual transmission is easy to learn, and while you were never taught, it is your choice to continue to not learn how. I also believe knowing how to drive a manual transmission should be a requirement for a driver's license.

 

[ij1889]

i was thinking, the new BMW 328xi are $43 grand and have 70 less HP, the is250 awd has somewhere in the 200hp range im not sure and is about the same price i believe, and the mazda 6 with 30 less HP is 6-7 grand cheaper as well AND only fwd, so why not pay $38k for a awd 350 Hp sedan???

it sounds like a reasonable price if you think about it and compare it to other cars in the market.

i think we are leaving out the thought of inflation and that car prices have sky rocketed

P.S. the BMW 335xi is around in the very high $40's, if what we read is accurate the sho should be able to smoke the 335xi easily

 

[LASERBLUE135]

^^^ ummm, its a Ford. People have been happily blowing $50,000 on bmw's for years and years. How many of these will sell? Doesn't mean it wont be fast, because it should be plenty quick. but...

Will it actually be a decent driver? Again, its a Ford. Take the Mustang 500 series. Its great on paper, 500hp and all that jazz, but if you take people who regularily drive 400+hp cars you find out that it actually sucks compaired to others. I really hope its a great car. I really do, but I've got my serious doubts.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Laser, yet Ford also has made some cars with awesome driving manners. The SVT Contour was widely regarded as a BMW 3-series for $10K less. Older SHO models were also well regarded as performance sport sedans. While the Mustang 500 series has been a disappointment, many Cobra models have also been excellently done. Ford has a generally good reputation for getting these things done well.

However, I do agree that there will be price sensitivity for a Ford and particularly a Taurus of this price range. The 3rd-Gen SHO was a flop because it was too expensive and not differentiated enough from other models. This one has risks of repeating those mistakes.

Ivan, while there has been some inflation, I would not say car prices have skyrocketed in most cases, despite exceptions (the BMW 3-series being a notable one).

 

[AJ]

^^^ ummm, its a Ford. People have been happily blowing $50,000 on bmw's for years and years. How many of these will sell? Doesn't mean it wont be fast, because it should be plenty quick. but...

Will it actually be a decent driver? Again, its a Ford. Take the Mustang 500 series. Its great on paper, 500hp and all that jazz, but if you take people who regularily drive 400+hp cars you find out that it actually sucks compaired to others. I really hope its a great car. I really do, but I've got my serious doubts.

Good point on the Beamers, at least with that high price the owner pays NOTHING in maint through the warranty period(at least I think this is still accurate). Not something you'll get with ford, and with a platform that is out of the Ford norm, what will repair costs be if something is flawed on the end product.

 

[Picklz]

I half agree with you on the manual argument James. In a vehicle that has a manual option, I think you should be able to get that transmission with any of the option packages. Now what the dealers order to have on their lot is probably going to be what they feel is going to sell best, if they won't order one in for you to test drive that's a dealer issue more than the manufacturer.

Now as for a manual only being offered on a V6 not the V8, or not offered at all. When a car is designed if it is going to need a manual transmission as well as an auto option that's additional cost in R&D, Testing, and Tooling/Inventory costs. Depending on it's target market, it might not make sense for them to add the option. In the case of the Lincoln perhaps they had a transmission that was cost effective to use for the V6, but didn't have a great option to use on the V8, or maybe it was decided it wouldn't sell enough units in V8 trim to make it worth the additional cost.

The new Mazda 6 is a good example, I know Mazda's whole deal is ZoomZoom, but they took that in a different direction on the 6, good or bad, I don't really see a manual fitting in there, they went up market trying to shoot for more of a sport luxury sedan.

I understand wanting all the individual options but I also think you have to look at it from a financial and business/profit perspective too.

 

[ij1889]

Good point on the Beamers, at least with that high price the owner pays NOTHING in maint through the warranty period(at least I think this is still accurate)..

i would not be surprised if ford actually did something like this, volvo is at the current moment

 

[Slim]

For me the whole manual thing on the Taurus SHO is that it should be offered as the car is a sportier, enthusiasts vehicle. As such, most true enthusiasts want a manual. That's why Mazdaspeeds come in manual only. Now that being said, since it's based off the Taurus and a larger sized sedan offered for significantly more cha-ching, it's moved up into an "older" market that probably wants an automatic option. So, really IMHO it should have both.

The new Mazda 6 is a good example, I know Mazda's whole deal is ZoomZoom, but they took that in a different direction on the 6, good or bad, I don't really see a manual fitting in there, they went up market trying to shoot for more of a sport luxury sedan.

Good point. But along with that, they do offer the manual for the 4 cyl version of the new 6. In this case, as with many others, it's due to that fact that a lot of people who want manuals want it for the fuel efficiency over an automatic. Therefore, if they are interested in fuel efficiency they are not going to buy the larger V6 engine. Hence, Mazda offers the manual only in the 4 cyl, and forgoes it in the V6.

When I was looking at cars in 2003 before I got my 6, I liked the current Accord coupe (yep Tom I did) and it only offered the manual in the 4 cyl and skipped it in the V6.

And speaking of good Ford cars, Ivan, if you're going to go to Europe and bring back a car you should switch to the Focus RS.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Matt, I would like to see the actual figures used to make these determinations. How much do they think it would really cost, what are their sales estimates? Considering the LS was a RWD car and the Jaguar S-Type offered a V8/manual combination, it would greatly surprise me if there was not a parts-bin manual available (that's my opinion, it may have been the case, I have been surprised before).

I also see a "halo effect" when a manual transmission is offered than can spread the sport credentials across an entire car line. It's the same reason why car companies create cars like the Viper or the Ford GT at a loss... or even the Insight for a different kind of "halo".

I need more real numbers to look at it from a financial/profit perspective, and so I probably do not do so enough. Unfortunately, I lack the data needed. However, I think others are looking at these matters too much from that perspective and not enough from an automotive enthusiast perspective. I would really like to see the real costs of shifting the balance to more like it used to be.

On the Mazda6, I do agree Mazda wanted to move the car upscale and it is possible a sport/luxury sedan was the target. However, if that was the target, they missed their mark, as a sport/luxury sedan is exactly what I want.

 

[dmention7]

Also.... when it comes to economy cars, manual transmissions are routinely offered at at least $1k less than automatics of the same trim level. Probably even a larger discount over fancy DSG transmissions on higher-end cars. That has to be worth something these days....

 

[ij1889]

And speaking of good Ford cars, Ivan, if you're going to go to Europe and bring back a car you should switch to the Focus RS.

why? the RS is using the same set up(but different tune and suspension) than the volvo c30, the inline 5 that they use is volvo, not ford

 

[Workdawg]

Yeah, but the focus RS is gunna put down WAY more power isn't it?

 

[Slim]

Yeah, but the focus RS is gunna put down WAY more power isn't it?

Ding-ding! Circle gets the square.

IIRC about 300hp for the RS and 230hp for the C30. See here

And you get the exclusivity of a car you can't get in the states.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Actually, the Focus RS is coming to the states, from what Parnell was saying on Tuesday.

 

[DrWebster]

1) I agree automatics are better, however, manual transmissions are not geared to be as efficient as automatics. The automatic often has taller ratios for better fuel economy, making the comparison impossible to make fairly on an apples to apples basis.

Automatics are geared taller to try to overcome the inherent inefficiencies of their design, to try to get their economy to be more on par with manuals. The truth is, though, that a true automatic, with torque converter, will never be as efficient as a manual, simply because there are more parts that rob some of the power that would otherwise go to the wheels.

2) A DSG still eliminates much of the driving experience of a manual. I would still say it disqualifies than man card as there is no clutch pedal.

So what you're saying is, if I don't want to push a pedal AND pull a lever at the same time, I'm a pussy?

3) A manual transmission is easy to learn, and while you were never taught, it is your choice to continue to not learn how. I also believe knowing how to drive a manual transmission should be a requirement for a driver's license.

The reason I'm not pursuing learning how to drive a manual now is because my primary focus is getting my wife to be able to drive, period. Furthermore, when I bought my 3 I was not willing to buy a car that I wouldn't be able to safely drive off the lot and to work the next day...call me whatever names you want, I don't care.

Probably the most disconcerting thing about the whole transmission discussion is how much hate there is from people who drive MTX's against those who drive ATX's. It's not just "I don't like automatic transmissions", it's "I don't like people who drive automatic transmissions." I have every right to choose what kind of car I want to drive and what transmission comes in it, and those choices have absolutely nothing to do with my moral character or manliness. Nobody who drives an ATX gives people who drive manuals shit, so you haters can get off of your high horses now.

 

[AJ]

Would this be a bad time to bring up that with a lot of cars these days people are swapping to Autos for higher HP applications.

Regardless, I agree that it shouldn't matter what someone's shifting preference is. I also don't think anyone here actually thinks any less of anyone else for driving an AT to that point though.

With that said, we need a "test drive" day where someone can get keys to a MT without a salesman and he can get a crash course on a "rental".

 

[ij1889]

Ding-ding! Circle gets the square.

IIRC about 300hp for the RS and 230hp for the C30. See here

And you get the exclusivity of a car you can't get in the states.

so you want me to ship over a $51k car with the same engine and turbo as the one i bought, when i could pay $3k in aftermarket parts for the c30 and get more power than the rs?

to me the RS looks like a Hot Wheels.
no thanks, ill pass


P.S. how the hell did my car get thrown in this conversation?

Nobody who drives an ATX gives people who drive manuals shit, so you haters can get off of your high horses now.

if its a DD i dont see anything bad with a manual, but if its your fun car, then gtfo

 

[YSOSLO]

RS AWD > C30 FWD

BMW > Ford every time

MTX = less likelihood others will ask to borrow your car....and ATX doesn't tell me anything about you other than you probably car more about a relaxing drive than a potentially exciting driving experience to completely generalize, nothing more

And there's no way I'd spend $40K on a Taurus, at least until I'm 60yrs old and can't afford a Buick or something...lol

 

[ij1889]

old age or late night > Pete's eye's

the RS is FWD

i think many are underestimating what ford can do compared to luxury cars